#1 Comic Peeve

chrcontagious

As a reader, what is your number one pet peeve when reading web comics? I have no doubt in the world that I'm guilty of irritating habits myself, but there are a few things which turn me off new comics right away.

I'll limit myself to just one. For me, it's those comics which start with a title page, then a Chapter title page, then a few random sketches, character introductions, or text intros - if I have to wade through more than two introductory pages before getting to the actual comic, I will leave the site immediately. I'm a busy guy. I have YouTube videos to watch.

captaintemerity

I think it might stem from the want to get things on the site, having content, that people wind up doing that. I also know that we're trying to get some buffer in on Baujahr right now, and I plan on having a title page for the next "book," one as a separation, and two as some extra lead.

I think with experience, and some breathing room, people wind up moving the sketches and such to other places on their sites. As far as two title pages, that's probably more to make it feel like a book or graphic novel. What it would feel like to read it in print. But I still think it's more "you should have XX pages on your site before you show it to anyone/put up ads/do whatever" that people want to hit.

I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing to really have any nitpicks on anyone else's sites yet. Everything I see other people do is exciting to me, to just have new ideas and such to try to integrate into our site. And then, once I go too far, I'm sure I'll have to go back and start editing, taking things out, simplifying again, to just the stuff that actually works. I accidentally broke the site this week, for a couple days, because of some security plug-in someone else mentioned in a forum that I had no idea how to make work right. And I've been at this a year or so. At this point in guitar, I knew all my open chords, my barre chords, some licks, could piece out some classical songs. That's when I felt a breakthrough. I don't know why I expected running a webcomic site would be on a similar timeline.

chrcontagious

@captaintemerity I have no problem with the title and chapter pages. I expect them. But following that, everything else that is not the comic is (in my opinion) just excess bloat and shouldn't be part of the comic continuity. While you are probably right about why it is included, I'd say a better course is just not to advertise until you have enough actual comic content to display. The sketches and notes and what-have-you should, IMO, be left for a compendium in a print volume, preferably at the back where it doesn't get in the way of reading enjoyment, just as i feel sketches and such should be optional on a website and not part of the main flow.

I'm sure many people feel the exact opposite, but yeah, that's my personal gripe ;)

djsprockets

I don't tend to read comics that are drawn poorly.

Not saying mine is the best on the world or anything close, but I like to look at comics that have more of a professional feel with the art.

Keeeng

Mine is kind of a mix of 2 things...

1 : too much to read per panel

2 : bad website layout

chrcontagious

"I don't tend to read comics that are drawn poorly." Guilty!

"1 : too much to read per panel" Occasionally guilty!

"2 : bad website layout" Guilty!

captaintemerity

Chrcontagious, I don't really disagree with you. I just think I can see why it's sometimes like that. It doesn't bother me so much, but I get why it would bother you (or others).

Since I'm still learning, and have a long ways to go, I can't really point fingers as to what I see wrong with other people's site when I'm too busy pointing at the things wrong with mine. It was just a couple weeks ago on here that it was pointed out to me that I've been setting the DPI too high on my comic posts, and that's part of why the site loaded so slow. I knew it was slow, I just didn't know why.

I know my layout is a challenge. With some of the amazing looking sites out there, the expectations from the average reader are deservedly high. Maybe we can turn this thread (or start a new one) into a critique/advice thread, to help people (like me, and hopefully others) improve.

chrcontagious

@captaintemerity

"Since I'm still learning, and have a long ways to go, I can't really
point fingers as to what I see wrong with other people's site when I'm
too busy pointing at the things wrong with mine."

Hey, no one needs more improvement than I do. I'm well aware that I can't possibly compete with anyone at any kind of professional level, art or site; I just don't have the skill. I'm still willing to point out what I don't like, though. I mean, I don't make movies - and if I did, they would certainly suck - but I can still spot bad directorial or acting choices.

"Maybe we can turn this thread (or start a new one) into a
critique/advice thread, to help people (like me, and hopefully others)
improve."

Good thread idea, put a more positive spin on it. I was intending to learn from this thread anyway, applying what people said they didn't like in general to my own stuff and preparing to cringe (and hopefully fix) ;)

Mr.Hades

Constant posting of filler material will turn me off of a webcomic. A regular update schedule, even if it's once a week, is better then randomly posting pages on different days.

Lo

If I have to narrow it down to one thing that's easy to do/understand without more than a 101 understanding of comics (and besides bad writing which is kind of a given) it would be backgrounds. If backgrounds, or some indication thereof, don't take up at least half the page on average, then I'm out. If I don't get what's going on spacially then that really takes me out of the story.

AlienShoresBand

Bad art and really overdone jokes often turn me off, but those things tend to get better as the comic "finds itself." What's really a dealbreaker for me is a gaudy and/or hard to navigate site. I found one that I had to click three times to get the text readable and I gave up.

Also, sometimes an art style just doesn't catch my eye, but doesn't mean it's bad!

PaveTheTigt

Spelling or grammar issues. I know it's a pain to open up the the graphic file again and tweak the text, but it's really unprofessional looking and breaks all immersion.

djsprockets

AlienShoresBand, I know that sometimes a comic may be really good and have not so good art. It's just my personal preference not to read those strips/books. It explains why I've never read the original Sandman books... *ducks*

terence

Pave, I can't agree more: webcomics that often misspell simple werds update after update are one of my biggest bugbears.

I go for a fairly wide range of art styles, capabilities and story foci, but I find that the ones which get gratuitously vulgar tend to drop off the list. I mean, vulgarity can be hilarious in the handful of comics which do it well, but is used as a crutch by waaaaaay too many others.

prydonian

I'd say, off the top of my head, I'm not a fan of webcomics that rely on nothing but pure "fan service" (mostly of the T&A variety), just for the sakes of getting clicks, and rely far too much on it to keep their numbers up.

observetoexist

My biggest pet peeve is an irregular update schedule, especially if I know the artist works at it full time. Something about it screams unprofessional to me, idk, maybe I'm too harsh.

AlienShoresBand

@djsprockets Sorry, I wasn't meaning to criticize you specifically! And I know what you mean about the Sandman books, honestly the art did keep me away for a long time.

david_hl_higgins

My biggest pet peeve has always been the overkill of the Manga/Hentai sub-genre. When you have 100,000 kids all saying that someday they want to become great cartoonists and all they ever do is copy the existing Japanese Anime styles over and over again I find that lack of originality disturbing. I would feel the same way if everyone just drew comics based on Garfield, the Simpsons or The Far Side, so it's not necessarily a knock on the Japanese culture mind you but when you have a flood of people doing the exact same shit it diminishes the artistic value of any sort of genre. You don't get 10,000 Picassos just because several thousand artists do cubist work, you get 1 Picasso and 9999 copies who won't see the same sort of success.

david_hl_higgins

@david_hl_higgins

Oh God, DING DING DING! THIS!!!
I completely agree. I've been wanting to say it for ages, but was dreading the onslaught of hate/ flaming from the anime crowds.
I agree, I'm tired of the sea of samey copy-paste/ trace and duplicate anime "comics" in the wild. They all copy each other, in art and in story. There's only so much you can do with schoolgirls with demon powers, tentacles, humanoid furry animals, mystical sword, femme boys, etc... Enough, please.
Most of these comics are not even coming from Japan, but their from teenage kids in the US, who have a desire to be Japanese, which actually creeps Japanese people out (if you have Japanese friends, ask them. They do get creeped out by the weeaboos and otaku kids.)
I have nothing against anime, per-say, it's a good starting point for artists to find their own style. It's a jump point, not a permanent stay point.

There was that whole debacle about Nick Simmons (son of uberdouche Gene Simmons), who was accused of tracing his comic art from another anime. Yet, that is all that most anime is. Copying. I'm sure a huge amount of that butthurt were kiddies upset that Nick had instant success due to who his dad is, and that green-eyed angsty jealousy monster reared up in them all.

And, these same people don't get why people like us, get tired of anime. Hell, you don't see a sea of Steve Ditko copies, or Jim Steranko, Steve Dillon, Jack Kirby, Brian Bolland or Dave Gibbons copiers.
When Watchmen went huge, nobody ran out and did exact copies of said comic.

I get that anime/hentai/manga speaks to a certain demographic, but you don't flood the market with it. It creates consumer rejection, and people will automatically ignore anything of that ilk.

It's the same with 8-bit sprite comics, utilising stolen Sonic, Mario or other video game imagery. Drunkduck used to be awash with it. It was a major reason I never tell people to go with webcomic hosting sites, as it's what they all seem to be full of: anime and 8-bit sprite junk.

DISCLAIMER (I have to say this, in case any anime fans get their panties twisted) - That's my take. I am not baiting any fan groups. Just saying my piece. If anyone gets upset, don't start flaming, screaming, etc, it's just an opinion, which hurts no one.

AlienShoresBand

@prydonian OMG, how could you SAY that, I mean it's only the complete and utter TRUTH!

I feel the same way as you guys, but I think it just has to do with the age group. When I was a teen I copied stuff I liked too, but there was no internet and no one had to be subjected to my crappy copies. I think it's like you say, it's a jumping-off point and most of them will find their own style.

So yeah. I iz with youse guys.

prydonian

Actually to amend part of my last post and I quote:
"And, these same people don't get why
people like us, get tired of anime. Hell, you don't see a sea of Steve
Ditko copies, or Jim Steranko, Steve Dillon, Jack Kirby, Brian Bolland
or Dave Gibbons copiers.
When Watchmen went huge, nobody ran out and did exact copies of said comic."
That is unless your name is either Josh Hoopes or Rob Granito.

*BADDUM! TISH!*
I'll be here all night. Don't forget to tip your waitress. And if you're driving home tonight, make sure you've got a car. ;)

david_hl_higgins

Ummm I opened a can O worms with my thoughts didn't I LOL

david_hl_higgins

@david_hl_higgins
You said what many think, and what you say is true. As it stands, anime was unique and stylish, but when every kiddie jumped onto it's bandwagon, it became so watered down by all the carbon copies, knock-offs, traces, etc, that outside of the otaku (from what some have told me the word is actually a Japanese slur word, and not a badge of honour) and weeaboos who gush over anything with huge eyes and schoolgirl panties.

I know what I say will get some flak from those circles, but again, it has to be said.
To some, it's a religious type thing, and to others, it's a fad that far outstayed its welcome.

But, again, that's my thoughts.

djsprockets

@AlienShoresBand - None taken. :)

faultycomics

The biggest one for me is poor web design. It can be the most masterfully drawn and riveting to read but shoddy layout or incomprehensible navigation has me reaching for the tiny closing x everytime.

rocketpig

Along with proper spelling and grammar, one of my biggest pet peeves is incorrect "comic lettering", particularly when it comes to uppercase fonts and word bubbles.

1. Learn the correct use of the letter "I" (eye), when you should use extenders and when you should not.

2. Vertical word bubbles suck. Stop using them. They're not stylistic, they suck. English is read left to right, not vertically (obviously, this doesn't apply to non-English comics).

3. Word bubble spacing. Make sure the text fits comfortably into the bubble.

I think too many comics let the lettering slide. It's understandable because we all have limited time. On the other hand, doing it right takes mere seconds longer than doing it wrong. It's just. Not. That. Hard.

rocketpig

@faultycomics

As a web developer, nothing will turn me off a comic faster than bad site design. I've spent a fair amount of my webcomicking career railing on some of things I think webcomics could do better to gain some legitimacy in the eyes of the comicking world. Get rid of the junk, make your comic big, and experiment with improved ways of displaying the book (I REALLY hate how most long-form comics are vertically-oriented while the majority of readers use horizontally-oriented monitors to read the book).

TheJoe

I'm worried about my website design. To compensate for a lack of design touch, I tried to keep it simple, because one pet peeve that goes with design is too much action & junk on one page.

Make the comic the focus and make it big. This isn't a newspaper that forces a shrink ray on everything, it's a big screen that you can use all of (but well, seems 800 pixels width is the customary limit). Simple navigation goes right after that.

afterdaylightcomic

I guess my biggest pet peeve is the people who leap into the heavy marketing before they hardly even have any content there, or who keep flogging the same tired old content rather than making new stuff. Fortunately, that's a pretty small minority.

rocketpig

@TheJoe You can go quite a bit wider than 800 pixels in modern design. A few years back, 960 pixels became the norm. In the past two years, the 1024 monitor has been phased out of existence, replaced by tablets (resolution independent) and 1280 monitors. Amazon is somewhere around 1050 pixels wide now, as are many other sites (I'm wrapping up design on a whopping 1100 pixel width site right now).

But even more than that, responsive design is the name of the game in today's sites. I implemented a semi-responsive design for my current site and I'm pretty happy with the results.

Anyway, the point is that you can go bigger than 800 pixels given today's technology.

TheJoe

One of the neatest things about being wrong on the internet is the ability to be corrected (and having the capacity to accept and use it)

I came at that number by going through dozen or so webcomics and sourcing the page to see what width they were using, and just going by that. I may poke around comic press and widen my page then, reformat my 4 panels to 4 straight instead of 2 by 2. I hate shrink ray, and I want big and beautiful as much as possible without being too big.

rocketpig

As harsh as this sounds, I would not base my design choices on most webcomic sites. They're often not a good representation of where current design trends are heading and what things are possible with today's technology. Then again, I'm a shifty old web designer who has spent a decade becoming embittered by clients who continually make awful choices and overrule perfectly good design in favor of awfulness. :D

If you're curious about what I mean by "responsive" design, here is an example of my comic, which uses a "partially responsive" design. Were I to design this again, it'd probably be fully responsive. My next site will surely be that way.

http://selfcentent.com/aurorae/vol1-pages-1-2/

(take the corner of your browser, drag it around, and resize it to see what I mean by responsive... you might not notice much difference unless you're using a monitor wider than 1280 pixels, though... this site is not designed for phone use at all because I hate the idea of people reading my comic on a phone)

TheJoe

Oh it's not too harsh, but the reality for me is time is very limited, and I have to allocate whatever time I have to making distinct progress -- for me that's pumping out comics and when and if I get to say 30-40 and decide it's time to advertise, visit the design again and mold it to fit.

Your comic site design is very nice, and at the moment so far over my head. I envy your experience and time to experiment and build towards a new trend.

Just going by what I've read so far, I already googled up on how to change width, and unfortunately the style.css fix from 980 to 1050 did not have any immediate results. I want to poke around a bit more and see this change now before I keep posting my 4 panels (in a 2 by 2 square), as I would absolutely love them in a straight 4 lineup, but without all the shrinkage.

#page {

width: 780px;

margin: 0px auto;

}

#page-wide {

width: 980px;

margin: 0px auto;

is what I found, so I upped things to page width 880 and page-wide widtch 1080. Going to goof off at work and make a straight 4 and see how it comes out.

faultycomics

@rocketpig My views are the same I've tried to keep my site about the comic by happy for some constructive criticism on how I can improve my site www.Faultytwin.com

rocketpig

@TheJoe If you ever have any questions, feel free to message me on Twitter @selfcentent.

I'll be more than happy to troubleshoot any issues you have with CSS or HTML. I'm on Twitter most days and can probably get you an answer within a few minutes (provided I'm not at my drafting table for the day).

AlienShoresBand

@rocketpig soooo does that offer stand for us all? :D I would love to engage more in responsive design but it took me so long to set up my stupid page I fear to mess with it. :)

rocketpig

@faultycomics One thing I see right off the bat is that your header is just too big, which will cause scrolling to reach your navigation. On a strip-style comic, a user should not have to scroll at all to progress to the next comic.

Your navigation is about 740px down-screen, which puts it just under the fold on the (pretty much standard at this point) 1280x800 monitor. Remember that a significant portion of a monitor is taken up by operating system and program elements. In Windows, the bottom 40px is taken by the taskbar while at the top of the screen, about 80px are taken up by the browser menu.

800-40-80=680 pixels of "above the fold" viewing area by the average user at 1280x800 resolution. Pack as much "important" content in that area so that your readers don't get annoyed and leave the site. Remember that the average internet user has the attention span of a squirrel hopped up on meth. Give them any reason to leave and the vast majority will do just that.

In the case of a strip-style comic, I'd want the header, navigation (both site and comic navigation), and one ad above the fold (if you're into advertising).

As a general statement, I believe it's important to lay out a basic design hierarchy when beginning work on a new site design. Pick 3-4 things. Number them from one to four in order of importance. Now, take those four things and size them according to importance, all with the goal of putting them above the fold on the site.

For my site, it was 3 1/2 things. One, the comic. Two, navigation. Three, social media share. The half was an advertisement.

Notice that I didn't prioritize the logo in that list. If someone is on your site, they'll recognize it. They'll recognize the name of the comic. You don't need to beat them over the head with your title and/or logo. Put it as a nice small reference in the corner and link that logo to your index page so it's not only present, but also useful as a "take me to the front page" clickable unit.

@alienshoresband Absolutely. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me about them. Despite what some in real life may think about me, I'm a pretty friendly fellow. :D

AlienShoresBand

@rocketpig alright, I'm taking you up on it! I f you have a moment, would you have a quick look and tell me the most glaring things I should consider changing? The home page is probably overly simple (http://www.alienshores.com) - but I'm more concerned about my comic page http://www.alienshores.com/alienshores_band
Thank you muchly!

rocketpig

You guys are really helping me procrastinate today. :D

Your front page is just fine IMO, excepting a few things.

1. That image should be clickable, preferably to the latest comic. My first instinct was to click on that image in hopes it would take me to the comic.

2. I'd more clearly delineate buttons for new readers to jump to the beginning. I'm not crazy about splash pages that lack deep content (even though I use one on my site, it's for a specific reason... another comic will be launched on the site sometime in the future, making "put the comic on the front page" an impossibility).

As for the comic, I hate to preach the same thing over and over again but I'd ditch that header. While I can't show the site now without permission, I'm working on a site for a fellow comicker where I tackled some of my problems with webcomic layouts while working with the fact that she had a large archive of standard-sized comic pages (it's a longform comic).

Here's an example of what I did without showing the site itself.

You'll see that I prioritized the comic and replaced the header with an ad to earn her a little money. By moving the navigation to the left, I do two things:

1. I free up space for that ad while still keeping the top of the comic just 120px from the top of the screen.

2. I take advantage of the fact that most people today are using screens that offer far more width than they do height and move the logo/nav to the left side of the site.

That means the comic is near the top, completely dominates the page, and still leaves space for the rest of the stuff. Again, it's back to design hierarchy. The comic is the draw of the site so I nearly smother the screen with her beautiful artwork.

Aside from that, I notice that your comic does not have navigation above the comic. At any point, the user should be able to progress with the comic without scrolling. If you force them to scroll, you might lose them. Get them to click again; keep them hooked in the site. I hate duplicitous content but in this case, it makes a ton of sense. Put comic navigation both above and below the comic. Don't give readers an excuse to leave.

TheJoe

rocketpig said: user should be able to progress with the comic without scrolling.

That's a point that isn't driven home enough the more I think about it.

AlienShoresBand

@rocketpig Thanks so much for your time! I really appreciate it. And by the image on the front page, you mean the slideshow thingee I take it.

I'll put nav buttons above. Clicking on the image itself takes people to the next page, tho not everyone knows that.

I may need to change the layout so that people don't have to scroll. I left it page formatted as I intended to go to print eventually. Also, I hate not being able to read text more than scrolling, but your point is well taken!

rocketpig

No problem. Here is what I ended up using on my last comic. I HATE scrolling. Hate hate hate it. While it's easy to scroll on tablets and Mac computers, scrolling is still kind of a pain on many Windows laptops, which offer sub-par trackpads in many cases. To combat this, I formatted my old comic like this:

http://variables.selfcentent.com/flux/vflux-2002-chapter-1-1/

Again, I push as hard as possible to keep everything above the fold for as many users as possible. If I were to do this again today, I'd change a few things but the idea behind it is solid (and surprisingly easy to set up with a little patience).

I did a quick "display: none" on a few of your comic elements. Take a look at the screenshot compared to your current site and I think you'll see what I mean about eliminating "useless" space.

rocketpig

@TheJoe I could rant and rave for a week about longform comic presentation.

Just because books are printed vertically does not mean webcomics should do the same, particularly when we live in a world of horizontally-based monitors.

Two excellent solutions are Thrillbent or going the entirely separate way and forcing users to scroll scroll scroll all day long like The Wormworld Saga. Having to scroll a few inches is a horse**** solution. Either work as hard as possible to eliminate scrolling entirely or focus your entire site around scrolling to continue reading.

I still need to do a bit of work to my own site to eliminate scrolling. I need to test it more on different monitors to eliminate scrolling entirely while reading my comic (though I'm pretty close now except for 1280 resolution... It just couldn't be done with my comic format... You win some, you lose some, I guess... There is no "winning" formula here that works for every person on every device).

AlienShoresBand

@rocketpig I see! Thanks again, I appreciate it! I definitely see what you mean by useless space.

Oh man, my scrapbook is like your old comic! I like that setup. I'm not sure that I could put all my pages in it (there will be way more than 100) - also I don't know if I can integrate it with comic easel's features (which I like).

I am definitely going to try to get the comic above the fold. I understand what you mean about webcomics not having to be vertical. Something for me to consider for the future, maybe another comic. I don't know if I want to shift layout now or not. I'll play with it.

Again, thanks muchly for the feedback!

rocketpig

Heh, after vacillating over presentation for months with my new comic, I decided to opt for "spreads" to avoid scrolling. It opened up new possibilities for me as a creator and all it took was butting two comic pages next to one another to do it.

Just one of many choices we can make as creators and it doesn't require any coding expertise to implement it.

I wish more webcomickers weren't so tethered to print standards in the conventional sense. I understand why it's done but it's hardly the best method of presentation for books that may never see print (or can be altered to fit print with a little ingenuity).

As for the slideshow on my old comic, that was a little time-consuming to implement but not terribly difficult. Instead of creating a never-ending "stream" of comics, I broke the book into mini-chapters. About 20 slides per show and then the user clicks into another slideshow. Not a perfect solution but I think the idea has merit should anyone really want to explore it more in-depth in the future. The concept offers some GREAT storytelling options, as the reader cannot accidentally (or purposefully) skip ahead to the "reveal" of the page. You control timing, something that is really hard to do in comics.

TheJoe

I love what you did with your old comic, more than Thrillbent, because it's obvious to find out where to advance to the next set. And with tablets gaining in popularity, a quick swipe to the next set in the same story/strip is perfect.

In my perfect world, I'd have 1-4 panels be on one line with no need to scroll down for reading, and any in a "sunday format" would be cut down allowing the user to swipe-push to the next page. The added bonus is the reader won't have the wandering eyes to see the punch line before they should.

I don't have twitter, but I'm going to have to think about setting it up and shooting the breeze with you down the road once I get to the point I'm positive I know my direction and decide to focus on the site layout and style.

rocketpig

Thrillbent: great idea, navigation that makes me want to cry. It's just awful.

TheJoe

"This site uses flash. if you are using tablet or phone it won't work."

That just wipes out the bathroom as the ideal area to read that comic in.

Wipes out.

ZING.

rocketpig

What site uses Flash?

Flash is the worst. It's a dying language. I highly recommend not learning it, ever. It'd be nice if advertisers of "rich media" would move away from the platform and on to Javascript/JQuery. I understand why they're tethered to Flash (it's really easy to animate) but given the prominence of iOS, its usefulness has been marginalized (thank god).

TheJoe

http://www.thrillbent.com/project/youthinkyouresosmart/

rocketpig

Oh, sweet Jesus. Non-PCs make up about 25% of web traffic today. Even Android no longer comes with Flash pre-installed so that means over one in five (nearly one in four, really) people cannot read that comic.

Um, bravo?

On one of my other sites, iPad traffic accounts for nearly one in ten pageviews. We are definitely living in a post-PC world and that world has no place for Flash. I go back-and-forth on reading comics on my phone, currently teetering on the "I don't care about phones" end of the spectrum.

At some point, I'm going to revisit that but as it stands now, I really don't want people even reading my comic on a phone. It poses far too many problems for far too few rewards. You can't even read most comic text on a phone without blowing up the page to the point where it looks like crap and you can barely see the art.

Maybe someday a crafty developer will figure out a solution.

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